Where have I been?
I haven’t posted anything here in a while because most of “blog-time” lately has been spent over at Mychurch.org debating the merits of YEC, Big Bang Theory, and common descent.
If any of my readers are interested in reading a lively discussion, you can read the comments here: http://www.mychurch.org/blog/116018/What-other-kind-of-day-is-there? My comments start at “January 01, 2008 at 2:18am” - don’t ask why I up that late on New Years eve blogging of all things.
GJG
January 12th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Hi Gordon,
Thanks to the link to the blog discussion. This one was remarkable for its civility, and that many of the participants appeared to actually be listening to each other. I really appreciated that you included some stuff that I hadn’t seen before (e.g. the question of why Moses didn’t use the word for reflected light regarding the moon in Genesis 1.) One question, there seemed to be two different Calvins in the quotes you gave:
1. Calvin preached that,
“Those who assert that ‘the earth moves and turns’…[are] motivated by ‘a spirit of bitterness, contradiction, and faultfinding;’ possessed by the devil, they aimed ‘to pervert the order of nature.”
and
2. John Calvin (1509-1564) said this in his commentary on Genesis 1:16:
“Moses makes two great luminaries; but astronomers prove, by conclusive reasons that the star of Saturn, which on account of its great distance, appears the least of all, is greater than the moon. Here lies the difference; Moses wrote in a popular style things which without instruction, all ordinary persons, endued with common sense, are able to understand; but astronomers investigate with great labour whatever the sagacity of the human mind can comprehend. Nevertheless, this study [of astronomy] is not to be reprobated, nor this science to be condemned, because some frantic persons are wont boldly to reject whatever is unknown to them. For astronomy is not only pleasant, but also very useful to be known: it cannot be denied that this art unfolds the admirable wisdom of God.”
Are these from the same Calvin? If so why are they so divergent?
– Vance
January 12th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Hey Vance, good to hear from you! Mike is a personal friend of mine from our Calvay days and he is very kind, generous, and patient. I admire him when it comes to Christian character and charity, but I think his views on science and faith are overly simplistic. I don’t know Eric, but he works with Mike at NOAA and is also very generous. I was amazed at how much impact the examples from history had on him. Perhaps we should stop arguing the scientific case and instead turn to history to make our points?
Good observation about Calvin. He was definitely a man of his time. He died the same year Galileo was born, and so he wasn’t around for the invention of the telescope. And therefore he lived during a time where Copernicism was merely ann untested hypothesis. Galileo did not observe the phases of Venus until 1610. However, the astronomers of Calvin’s day were providing very credible evidence for the moon as a reflective body rather than a luminary. Calvin appeared to grasp the significance of this evidence and was willing to use the principle of accommodation to understand the difficult passages. I believe that had he lived during Galileo’s time, he might have also grasped the significance of the phases of Venus. Had he lived during Bessel’s time, he probably would have grasped the significance of stellar parallax as well.
St. Augusting was also conflicted. He denounced the antipodes (a question of geography) using a theological argument, but then chastized other Christians for using the Scriptures to argue the shape of the sky or the relative weight of Earth and Water. I talk about this in my book.
The important lesson is that no matter how we try, it’s impossible to read the Bible apart from our own historical context. Things that might have seemed theologically impossible to medieval Christians-like the mixing of the earthly and heavenly realms-we don’t lose a wink of sleep over. In 500 years, will Christians look at past with embarrassment how we were so scared of common descent?
It’s an interesting thing to thing about. -GJG
January 13th, 2008 at 2:48 am
I just read through the dialog. Wow. That was long. I really appreciated the clarity and civility with which you addressed Eric. I have been reading (and reviewing) Tom DeRosa’s book, and reading all of the same arguments that Eric was throwing at you. You were very respectful.
By the way, I ordered your book from Amazon. It said there were several new copies, but then emailed me that it wasn’t going to ship until February. That’s okay, I’ll wait, but I though you would want to know.
Mike (another one)